Podcast Notes: Hoffman and Former Coin Fund Partner Discuss VVV, ETHFI, and PUMP Valuations

Organized & Compiled by Deep潮 TechFlow

Guest: Austin Barack (Founder and Managing Partner at Relayer Capital, former Partner at Coin Fund)

Host: David (Co-host of Bankless)

Podcast source: Bankless

Broadcast date: September 7, 2026

Duration: Approximately 67 minutes

Disclosure: Austin Barack is the founder and managing partner of Relayer Capital, which manages the Relayer Liquidity Token Fund and has exposure to multiple assets mentioned in this episode, including VVV, Pump, Hype, ETHFI, and ETH. He was the lead investor in ETHFI’s Series A round (February 2024). The target prices, valuation multiples, and revenue projections he publicly shared in this episode are his personal opinions and judgments based on his own models and do not constitute investment advice. Please verify any specific target prices, multiples, or figures against the original models and disclosure documents.

• Framework: The Relayer currently has 95% of its position in liquidity tokens, seeking the intersection of "growth" and "value"; this year, focus on two trends: crypto combined with AI, and tokenization for 24/7 continuous trading.
• VVV (Venice) target price: $43.9, based on $336 million in revenue and $70 million in burns by 2027, at a 50x valuation. Three burn mechanisms are either live or upcoming: subscriptions, credit points, and future renewals. The assumption that 40% of 2027 burns will come from Minds (an AI app store), which has not yet launched. At the current price of ~$16, he considers it significantly undervalued below a $1 billion fully diluted valuation.
• ETHFI (Etherfi) could at least double: its business model has evolved from liquid staking to a "new type of on-chain brokerage," comparable to Nubank ($8 billion market cap, 139 million users). Today, 65% of revenue comes from credit cards and lending, generating $3–4 million in daily revenue (a 10x year-over-year increase), with annualized buybacks and burns exceeding $30 million—potentially pushing the share price above $1 at a 30x valuation.
• Pump Valuation Reassessment: Currently trading at only 5x buyback multiple, while Hyperliquid and Lighter are at 30–40x. Pump is not a memecoin—it’s the “largest casino-style business in crypto,” comparable to Las Vegas Sands, MGM, DraftKings, FanDuel, and prediction markets, with proven revenue durability for over two years. Even at a conservative 10x multiple without accounting for growth, there is still 1x upside potential.
• Hype: One of the best representatives of the crypto paradigm (24/7 settlement, all assets on-chain). Price discovery for new listings such as SpaceX, Cerebras, and Unitary has already occurred on Hype. The HIP-3 real-world asset market is driving volume but remains in the investment phase and has not yet monetized; mainstream crypto capital inflows have surged from millions per day to $50 million daily.
• Cycle positioning: The infrastructure era is over. The next winners will be zero-to-one applications that truly connect crypto with the real world, along with assets that can genuinely function as money (BTC, ETH, Zcash). Due to Bitcoin’s quantum risk and concentrated strategy holdings, ETH’s viability as money has returned.

• Regarding the rotation: "Previously, 95% of crypto revenue came from infrastructure; now, applications are taking two-thirds. This is the real rotation of this cycle."
• Regarding the VVV valuation model: "I didn't just make this up. I come from a background in corporate development and FP&A, and I derived this by working backward from revenue, gross profit, and reinvestment."
• Regarding ETHFI: "They're just repackaging Ethereum and selling it. As Ethereum upgrades from a new type of bank to a new type of brokerage, they upgrade along with it."
• About Pump: "This is the biggest casino business in the crypto space. You don’t ask who the users are at Sands Las Vegas, but the business has been going strong for thirty years."
• On cycles: "The era of hyper-infrastructure is over. This cycle’s winners will be the zero-to-one applications that truly connect crypto with the real world, and assets that can actually function as money."

I. How does the Relayer view cryptocurrency investing?

David: Welcome Austin Barack, founder of Relayer Capital. Let’s start with your investment framework, then break down each asset one by one.

Austin: The crypto market is always changing—strategies that worked in 2017 no longer work in 2021 or 2024. One theme that consistently holds up is the intersection of "growth" and "value." No one comes to crypto looking for a company growing at 10% per year with a fourfold valuation—those are everywhere. Investors are seeking assets with the fastest growth potential while still having room for valuation upside. Crypto capital itself is cyclical, with valuations often swinging between extreme overvaluation and extreme undervaluation, creating frequent opportunities where both "growth + value" align.

David: Is the current position between the two lines?

Austin: Cryptocurrency combined with AI, along with tokenization for 24/7 trading—Venice, Pump, Hyperliquid, and Ether all sit at the intersection of these two trends. I co-founded Relayer two and a half years ago after serving as a partner at Coin Fund. Today, Relayer engages in both liquidity and venture capital, but this year 95% of our focus has been on liquidity tokens, with the remaining 5% allocated to early-stage seed projects.

David: Are you not following the narrative around Layer 1 blockchains and Layer 2 networks?

Austin: The infrastructure era has largely ended. The new narratives around Layer 1 blockchains and Layer 2 networks belong to the last cycle; this year, capital is clearly flowing toward the application layer.

II. How is the VVV target price of $43.9 calculated?

David: You recently tweeted that VVV is severely undervalued at a $1 billion fully diluted valuation, with your model suggesting a fair price of $43.90. Let’s talk about this model.

Austin: I come from a background in enterprise development and FP&A, where I work backward from revenue and gross profit. Venice’s business is a “private, uncensored AI gateway,” with two revenue streams: subscriptions (at three tiers: $18, $68, and $200) and credit purchases. Subscribers who exceed their quota must buy additional credits. At the end of June or beginning of July, they completed a funding round at a $1 billion valuation, combining equity and tokens. Many in the market tense up at the mention of “equity + tokens,” but Venice executed a remarkably elegant design: the core business involves consumers using AI products and paying with credit cards—off-chain operations lead the way—while the token handles on-chain burning and tokenized compute power.

David: How is the burn calculated?

Austin: In the short term, Venice allocates nearly all of its free cash flow (after reinvestment) to the token. Two current burn mechanisms are in place: a corresponding number of VVV tokens are burned for each new subscription based on tier level, and 5% of VVV tokens are burned when purchasing credit scores. In the long term, they plan to gradually introduce additional mechanisms, such as burn on subscription renewals.

David: Let me check—does purchasing with credit score belong to the same thing as a subscription, or is it a new product?

Austin: A 2-point new feature, primarily designed to increase user engagement. But Minds is a 5-point new feature—an AI app store that enables power users to bundle their prompts and model combinations into products and sell them to other users, with Venice taking a cut and then burning the proceeds. This will be their largest variable for destruction in 2027.

David: Break down the numbers.

Austin: In August, Venice generated an annualized revenue of $107 million and an annualized burn of $8.3 million. By 2027, I project revenue to reach $336 million and burn to reach $70 million, with Minds contributing $29 million—40% of the total burn. Valuing the $70 million burn at a 50x multiple yields a token market cap of $3.5 billion. Spread across the total token supply by end of 2027, this equals $43.89 per token. I rate the model’s optimism at 6 out of 10.

David: Will the credit score purchase option increase by 5%?

Austin: I assume it will rise to 10% by 2027. They have already progressed through the path of "discretionary burn → new subscription burn → credit score burn," ramping up incrementally while validating each step.

David: What's the current price?

Austin: Around $16, whereas just a couple of days ago, when I updated the model, it was $12. The 10x revenue growth in eight months was unexpected; the $29 million assumption for Minds was unthinkable eight months ago. So this model is now merely “reasonably optimistic,” not “fully baked.”

David: Are you familiar with you and your team?

Austin: Pretty familiar. I’ve been following since VVV’s listing in early 2025, initially catching the airdrop through Virtuals and AIXBT. I lost track for a while, but in early 2026, I read Eric’s long thread on the tokenomics and DEM (tokenized computing power) entirely during a 40-minute taxi ride—and immediately allocated funds to the project.

Three: The Logic Behind ETHFI Doubling at Least

David: You also highlighted Etherfi—why?

Austin: This was the fund’s first venture investment, leading the Series A in February 2024. At the time, they were focused on liquid staking re-staking. After speaking with Mike and Rock, what impressed me most about this team wasn’t just their execution ability, but their strategic judgment on where the product was headed—they understood which products were for customer acquisition and which would become commoditized. Liquid staking re-staking was one of those that would become commoditized.

David: Today's business structure?

Austin: 65% of revenue comes from the "neobank" business (credit card usage and loan interest), while only 35% still relies on yields and staking. The direction is completely reversed. The market hasn’t caught up with this认知差 yet. On the day the Ethereum inflation reduction proposal was announced, Etherfi dropped more than 10%, and Lido also fell—the market is still pricing them under the “liquid staking” label, but Etherfi today is no longer the same as Lido.

David: Who is the benchmark?

Austin: Nubank—$80 billion market cap, 139 million users—all built by creating a more user-friendly product. Etherfi is building the global, stablecoin-driven, on-chain version of Nubank. As Ethereum itself evolves from a new type of bank into a new kind of brokerage—connecting tokenized stocks and real-world assets—Etherfi simply layers its product on top, selling it with almost no additional cost.

David: Revenue timing?

Austin: Currently $3 to $4 million per day, a 10x year-over-year growth. New business is still scaling. The primary revenue source for the next generation of neobanks and broker-dealers is interest from lending—Nubank derives 60% to 70% of its revenue from lending interest, while Etherfi currently generates only 4%, leaving significant room for growth. They also have an 80/20 revenue share agreement with Aave v4, with loans directly integrated onto Aave instances, allowing the team to remain lean.

David: How is valuation calculated?

Austin: Blockworks created a conservative model estimating $21 million in buybacks and burns over the next 12 months. I lean toward an optimistic estimate of at least $30 million. A 30x multiple is reasonable in the neobroker space, which would put the token price at around $1—currently near $0.50, suggesting at least a doubling potential. Blockworks halved their growth assumptions, but I believe they should be increased. The majority of the token supply is already in circulation, with no new issuance pressure, making its structure more akin to a mature stock with sustained buyback pressure.

Four: Reassessment of Pump and Hype

David: Pump is currently at a 5x buyback multiple, while Hyperliquid and Lighter are at 30-40x. How do you view this gap?

Austin: Pump is indeed cheap. I position it as "the biggest casino business in crypto"—same category as Las Vegas Sands, MGM, DraftKings, FanDuel, prediction markets, zero-day options, and betting on Robinhood. People play negative expected value products not to win money, but for variance; this business can run for decades. Pump’s revenue has grown another 80% quarter-over-quarter over the past 90 days, and it has proven remarkably durable over the past two years. The market’s understanding of "durability" is still catching up.

David: How do you increase the valuation?

Austin: A 10x buyback multiple is more reasonable than a 5x multiple. Even without growth, a multiple re-rating could double the value. With continued growth, there’s still upside potential. Pump has already tripled over the past one to two months, but I believe it’s not finished yet.

David: What about Hype?

Austin: Hype may be the most fully realized case of a crypto paradigm beyond stablecoins, BTC, and Zcash—offering 24/7 settlement, all assets on-chain, and moving the entire financial system onto the blockchain. A recent new development is price discovery for pre-IPO stocks: assets like SpaceX, Cerebras, and Unitary, which haven’t officially gone public yet, already have their prices discovered by the market on Hype. Investment banks may soon use Hype’s pricing as a benchmark when setting IPO valuations.

David: How is the financial situation progressing?

Austin: The main growth has come from trading volume on HIP-3 markets (commodities, stocks, indices), but those are still in the investment phase and haven’t generated much revenue yet. The real cash cows are perpetual contracts on crypto tokens. A week ago, daily fees were in the millions, but recently, one day alone reached $5 million. Capital is flowing back to the core crypto market, and Hype is the biggest beneficiary, as it directly profits from crypto capital inflows and token volatility.

David: You also mentioned the "token vs equity" risk with Pump and VVV.

Austin: Yes, Pump was initially 100% buyback, but that was not guaranteed permanently. This year, it changed to 50% of revenue for buybacks, with a 12-month commitment, and the remaining 50% is reinvested. For a multi-billion-dollar entity holding a large amount of tokens and aiming to build a long-term business, whether the renewal next year will succeed remains uncertain. The market has reasonably priced in this risk, but for a top-tier team, the likelihood of voluntarily abandoning the token is low. This risk can be discounted through the buyback multiple—conservatively at 6–10x, or optimistically at 10–14x.

Five: Cycle Positioning: Application + Money

David: How do you define this cycle?

Austin: For a long time in crypto history, infrastructure captured over 95% of total revenue; now, applications are taking two-thirds, leaving infrastructure with only one-third. This trend will continue, with applications potentially capturing over 90%. The tokens most resilient over time are those in the "applications" and "money" categories. Bitcoin won’t disappear, and privacy coins like Zcash are regaining their relevance: Zcash serves a different user base and embodies the original vision of crypto from a decade ago—recently, we’ve seen early Bitcoin advocates contributing structural inflows back into it.

David: What about ETH?

Austin: ETH is now in a very interesting position, with the potential to become "money"—a perspective I haven’t seriously considered in a long time. Bitcoin faces several variables: quantum computing risk, concentration risk in strategic holdings, and other structural factors. Taken together, ETH’s case as "money" is stronger than ever before. Ethereum has consistently demonstrated its value through fundamental business support, and with the recent return of the "money" narrative, its valuation case has become compelling.

David: What do you think about Solana?

Austin: Solana is currently the public chain with the highest on-chain spot activity, forming the backbone of Pump’s entire business. However, it’s now in an awkward phase—highly utilized but generating little revenue, as less MEV is being captured. Solana remains one of the most compelling bets in crypto adoption, but it’s crucial to closely monitor how it turns usage into revenue.

David: What about Base and Robinhood Chain?

Austin: Both are blockchains that are heavily utilized—focus on what applications can extract from them.

David: To wrap it up, how will this cycle in 2026 be remembered?

Austin: 2026 will be the year when the narratives of "applications" and "money" come to fruition—the year to enter the 0-to-1 applications that bridge crypto and the real world. Looking back, projects like Venice, Hyperliquid, Pump, Etherfi, BTC, and Zcash will be remembered as the entry points of this cycle.